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LOGic crashes too often when moving VFO A or B
N5XZ
#1 Posted : Wednesday, January 13, 2016 1:19:34 AM(UTC)
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LOGic has always given me fits by crashing when I move frequency. Recently, you did a patch where my LOGic was not polling my K3 (polling was grayed out). Before the patch, without the polling turned on, the COM windows showed a frequency for a while, then it would clear (00.0000). After the patch, with polling now turned on, the COM window always shows the frequency, but I get a lot more crashes when I move frequency. What could be causing that? I am running a K3, with a microHAM micro KEYER II (FTDI Serial-USB converter built in) and virtual serial ports. I have had this crashing issues for years, but recently, before the patch, is was largely gone. Now it is back more frequently. Possibly data collisions?
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73, Allen N5XZ
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N5XZ
#2 Posted : Monday, January 18, 2016 9:13:39 AM(UTC)
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Dennis, I turned polling off and the program has not crashed yet. Of course, the frequency information on the VFO window is 00.0000 much of the time again. So what is going on with polling that makes the system crash?

WIN7 Home Premium
K3
microHAM micro keyer II with Eltima virtual com ports.
73, Allen N5XZ
wa4pgm
#3 Posted : Monday, January 18, 2016 3:43:35 PM(UTC)
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I am using a similar setup, K3 and the original microKEYER.

This error pops up when my rig is in SPLIT with SUB ON. When I tune VFO B I get the error but it doesn't always happen. Mainly seems to be if I use the REV button to check the other frequency I get the popup error.

Hope this will help find the solution.
73 Kyle WA4PGM
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WN4AZY on 1/18/2016(UTC)
N5XZ
#4 Posted : Monday, January 18, 2016 6:02:13 PM(UTC)
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I have had this issue for a very long time, doesn't matter if I have the SUB on or in split or non-split mode. I have noticed that it happens alot when I have left the rig on for a long time with no activity, then I either move the VFO A or B knob, or I select SET RADIO or some other function within LOGic. Some days, it happens over and over again, other days, not at all. Totally inconsistent.

Dennis?
73, Allen N5XZ
WN4AZY
#5 Posted : Monday, January 18, 2016 9:31:59 PM(UTC)
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Unfortunately, these sort of errors come from deep inside Windows somewhere, usually caused by USB=>RS232 adapters or other virtual com port drivers that are not 100% compatible. If you have an FTDI-based USB=>RS232 adapter lying around, try that. I bet it will work with polling off.

What LOGic is polling mode does, as well what as most other software does all the time, is periodically ask the rig what the current freq is, and waits for a response.

LOGic is one of the few if not the only software around that does not rely on polling of the rig to update the real-time display. For rigs that support Icon's CI/V Transceive or Kenwood's Auto Info mode, LOGic just sits there and waits for the data to come in the port. When it receives data, a Windows interrupt causes the computer to stop what it's doing, and transfer the data to LOGic's realtime display. Non-FTDI drivers seem to have trouble with this scenario.

Quote:
...the frequency information on the VFO window is 0.0000 much of the time again.

There should be a little more lag when updating the frequency, but it shouldn't say 0.0000 except maybe when first starting the program. When does it turn to 0.0000? Does it just periodically go to 0? Does it ever log 0? LOGic ALWAYS polls the rig when it needs the frequency for something other than just merely updating the display, even when polling is turned off BTW.

Tnx & 73,

Dennis WN4AZY
wa4pgm
#6 Posted : Monday, January 18, 2016 9:44:30 PM(UTC)
kchavis

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Experimenting with trying to work VP8STI on 40 meters. The rig is set SPLIT, SUB ON, and when I tune VFO B the popup error displays. Not instantly though sometimes not at all.

Other than this LOGic does not give me the other issues you are seeing. I've never seen this error when not in SPLIT mode.
N5XZ
#8 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 6:49:25 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: WN4AZY Go to Quoted Post
Unfortunately, these sort of errors come from deep inside Windows somewhere, usually caused by USB=>RS232 adapters or other virtual com port drivers that are not 100% compatible. If you have an FTDI-based USB=>RS232 adapter lying around, try that. I bet it will work with polling off.

What LOGic is polling mode does, as well what as most other software does all the time, is periodically ask the rig what the current freq is, and waits for a response.

LOGic is one of the few if not the only software around that does not rely on polling of the rig to update the real-time display. For rigs that support Icon's CI/V Transceive or Kenwood's Auto Info mode, LOGic just sits there and waits for the data to come in the port. When it receives data, a Windows interrupt causes the computer to stop what it's doing, and transfer the data to LOGic's realtime display. Non-FTDI drivers seem to have trouble with this scenario.

Quote:
...the frequency information on the VFO window is 0.0000 much of the time again.

There should be a little more lag when updating the frequency, but it shouldn't say 0.0000 except maybe when first starting the program. When does it turn to 0.0000? Does it just periodically go to 0? Does it ever log 0? LOGic ALWAYS polls the rig when it needs the frequency for something other than just merely updating the display, even when polling is turned off BTW.

Tnx & 73,

Dennis WN4AZY


I use this exact setup with N1MM and other programs and I do not have this problem at all. The microHAM micro KEYER II is not a cheap interface, and doubt that is the problem. I believe the problem lies with LOGic. I do agree with WA4PGM that the problem occurs more when in SPLIT mode and also when I use the REV button on the K3.

The VFO display does not go to 00.0000 immediately, it does take some time before it does that.
73, Allen N5XZ
wa4pgm
#9 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 8:29:23 AM(UTC)
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I noticed at times when the rig is polled that the window displaying, frequency, mode, Up/Dn, A<>B, etc... will jump from U(USB) to L(LSB) then back to U before the popup error happens. During this brief second frequency is displayed as 0.0000.

K3 driver issues?
N5XZ
#10 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 11:02:38 AM(UTC)
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I think it is a driver issue...if other software works ok.
73, Allen N5XZ
N5XZ
#11 Posted : Monday, January 25, 2016 4:58:11 PM(UTC)
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Dennis,

Please look into this problem some more. I am not the only user experiencing it, you see.
73, Allen N5XZ
WN4AZY
#12 Posted : Tuesday, January 26, 2016 10:02:28 AM(UTC)
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Unfortunately, this error (see attacment on the first post) is not coming from LOGic, but Windows or a driver. It is not coming from anything I wrote -- some low-level stuff that is way beyond my pay grade hihi.

I understand that you are using MicroHam that has some sort of built-in USB=>RS232 adapter. Verify that the driver is in fact by FTDI (see Windows device manager). Bypass any other Microkeyer functionality that you may be using. Do you have a regular old FTDI USB=>RS232 adapter that you can try?

Heck, try uninstalling all of your drivers and reinstalling them. Are you running Win 10? I think if it still had the Win 8 FTDI drivers it wouldn't work at all, but maybe something didn't update properly when you installed Win 10.

Can you eliminate the Eltimah drivers from the equation as a test? I have heard nothing but good about them, but you never know. Make sure you've got their latest and greatest.

Tnx & 73,

Dennis WN4AZY
N5VR
#13 Posted : Monday, February 8, 2016 5:53:28 PM(UTC)
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Hi All,

Dennis, please help us get this fixed or maybe a workaround could be found? It is a terrible problem that will force me off Logic if a solution can't be found and I've been on Logic since the DOS days. Normally if a feature was this annoying I would not use it but how do you not use the rig interface? Its key to capturing much of the info that gets logged. Let me add a couple things to the notes above:

1) It seems to be worse now than ever. It was intolerable while chasing the guys at VP8 which was tough enough on its own.

2) Happens on Win 10 and Vista BOTH. I switched to a Win 10 laptop and it seemed better - for a while but then it attacked.

2A) I am not sure that I agree with the comment above that it happens only in split mode. It seems to me that it happens when the Sub-receiver is on which is a separate action on the K3. I just noticed that if you turn the sub on using the K3 button Logic does not reflect this in the virtual button. If you turn split on with the panel control Logic notices and indicates this on the virtual button as I assume it should. Whether split or Sub though either one means that Logic blows up at the worst possible times from an operating perspective.

3) Reinstalling the FTDI drivers didn't help. I went to the website of the converter and downloaded a new driver and installed it.

4) In my case I do not use anything between the computer and the K3 except the converter which is a StaTech ICUSB2321F which is the one that Elecraft recommends for the K3.

5) following a thought from above I watched the "buttons" on the rig interface display as I tuned the K3 manually and while on 20M SSB I noticed the LSB and USB buttons activating as I tuned. I didn't cross any band segments or do anything else that should cause the buttons to activate.

6) I tried to reduce the baud rate between the computer and the K3 to see if this would help but apparently this is not an option as the K3 always reverts to 38400 as soon as the interface is plugged in even if I try to configure a lower number.

It seems very likely that this is a driver problem and not a Logic problem but since I need both to work that's not very comforting. If you want me to experiment some more I would be happy to but I haven't found a way to force this to happen as it happens sometimes but not always under any condition I can find.

Regards.
Bill
N5XZ
#14 Posted : Monday, February 8, 2016 6:59:41 PM(UTC)
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I have found that this happens (sometimes):
-When I move VFO A
-When I move VFO B
-When I click the "Move to frequency button" on the Spot Log
-When I click the "Log it" button on the Spot Log (more often when I do this than above, so much in the past that I decided not to click that button at all).

No, the rig does not have to be in split mode for the software to crash. I have not noticed any difference when the sub-receiver is on or off.

As stated before, I am using a K3 and a MicroHAM MicroKeyer II with its built in FTDI converter and virtual drivers.

I regularly use N1MM+ for ALL contests and NEVER have this problem. It is rock steady, no crashes. What does N1MM+ do differently from LOGic that is does not crash? It has similar functions (clicking on the bandmap or needed multiplier window, for example, moves the radio to the appropriate frequency with no problems).

Another note, this has been an ongoing problem for years, ever since I switched to a K3. With multiple computers and installations, and different versions of LOGic.

I'm thinking possibly it is the LOGic K3 driver(?)
73, Allen N5XZ
WN4AZY
#15 Posted : Tuesday, February 9, 2016 5:16:51 PM(UTC)
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Ok, I had typed in a long response documenting the details of some the commands sent, but lost it before I got to post. I won't bore you with that anyway, but will summarize.

The K3 uses the TS-850 driver with a few minor changes. The basic stuff, setting VFOs, Mode, freq, etc is exactly the same as the 850 and probably all other Kenwoods for that matter. The differences for the K3 over the 850 are:

*When setting freq and mode, we set the freq first on the K3, as apparently the K3 remembers what mode was last used on a particular band and automatically sets the mode to that. Normally (for the 850 for instance), you set the mode first then the freq, as setting the mode may cause a small freq shift.

*Setting split. LOGic sends FT1; to set split and FR0; to cancel split. I thought that the K3 required that VFO 1 must be used for TX when in split mode, but looking at the documentation, I do not see that restriction. I do see that sending any FR command to set the receive mode cancels any split operation which is a little different. Question -- does the Split command function properly aside from the crashing?

Anyway, I don't see how the commands I send could cause crashing. I should be able to send War and Peace to it, and while the rig won't do what you want, it shouldn't crash.

I am pretty sure it is something with the MicroHam box. Correct me if I am wrong, but no one with other hardware has reported this level of grief? Is the MicroHam box operating as a simple level converter, or are they doing something with the commands going back and forth? Is there anything special I am supposed to be doing when talking thru this box?

Someone PLEASE check the device driver in Windows and see if the driver is indeed a standard FTDI. They may be using FTDI hardware, but using their own or a modified driver. I will post screen shots from a regular old FTDI converter here later for comparison.

Why is LOGic "causing" the crash when N1MM is not? Hard to say. We are using the .Net 4 drivers, they probably are not. We clear the rx buffer before sending a command so we know the state of things when the rig responds. N1MM may not be doing this.

Also, LOGic sends AI1; to the rig on startup to turn on auto information mode (rig sends info to LOGic when changing mode or freq). N1MM may not. There has been discussion on polling the K3 to avoid problems, but that does not turn off the AI1; feature.

Quote:
following a thought from above I watched the "buttons" on the rig interface display as I tuned the K3 manually and while on 20M SSB I noticed the LSB and USB buttons activating as I tuned. I didn't cross any band segments or do anything else that should cause the buttons to activate.
That would indicate that the data the rig (or Microham) is sending as you tune is sending bad data. I assume the rig is not swapping from USB to LSB as you tune! Can you stop spinning the dial and get LOGic to show LSB on 20M?

Someone please try the Kenwood 850 driver, both the new and legacy. Some commands will not work, but it should read and set the rig. I want to see if the crashing goes away. The legacy 850 driver does not use the .Net framework BTW.

A POSSIBLE WORKAROUND/SOLUTION. Use OmniRig. A side bonus, you can access the rig with N1MM and LOGic simulatneously. Also, I would be happy to lend someone a regular old FTDI USB=>RS232 adapter to try.

More later.

DH
N5XZ
#16 Posted : Tuesday, February 9, 2016 6:36:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: WN4AZY Go to Quoted Post
I am pretty sure it is something with the MicroHam box. Correct me if I am wrong, but no one with other hardware has reported this level of grief? Is the MicroHam box operating as a simple level converter, or are they doing something with the commands going back and forth? Is there anything special I am supposed to be doing when talking thru this box?DH


No, as you can see from N5VR's post, he is using a StaTech ICUSB232IF which I confirmed over the internet to be FTDI. I have also confirmed with the microHam developer that it also uses an FTDI chip.

I have used multiple K3's with the same problem, so I don't think it is the K3 or the microHam.


BTW, the SPLIT mode on the K3 works fine, 100% of the time.
73, Allen N5XZ
wa4pgm
#17 Posted : Tuesday, February 9, 2016 9:46:23 PM(UTC)
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I bypassed my microHAM unit with a Serial to Serial cable with USB FTDI Adapter.

FTDI driver was verified as FTDI on COM2 in the device manager.

K3 Radio set to SPLIT

K3 driver - popup error as before
TS850 non-legacy produces error but not as often

TS850 legacy - No popup errors but radio timeout popup when using REV.

This was kind of a rush in testing so I'll play with it a few days and let you know more.
Kyle, WA4PGM
WN4AZY
#18 Posted : Wednesday, February 10, 2016 1:04:40 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Kyle. Good to know we can rule out MicroHam at least.

Do you have anything with a RS-232 port on the motherboard? Not USB=>RS232. What has me pulling my hair out is that I haven't the faintest idea how to create this error if I wanted to.

Let me look at the difference between the legacy and non-legacy drivers and see if I am doing anything different than just using .Net 4 vs the old Microsoft Com control.

Many many thanks!

Dennis

PS -- I might just come and visit your rig (and you too) hihi.
wa4pgm
#19 Posted : Wednesday, February 10, 2016 1:26:01 PM(UTC)
kchavis

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You know this computer has a serial port. I tried it but the rig goes to transmit. Going to reboot and look around, more later.

You're most welcome to stop by anytime and spend the weekend. The shack has a bed although its covered with stuff. :)
wa4pgm
#21 Posted : Wednesday, February 10, 2016 2:46:27 PM(UTC)
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Got the cable connected and here are my findings. Sometimes I don't explain things well so please ask if something doesn't appears correct.

Windows 7
LOGic 9.0.82

RS-232 Connection to Elecraft K3
Serial Cable COM1 to Elecraft K3 RS-232 Port

K3 driver - See below for TS-850 results

Rig is NOT set to Split

The following is what I did step by step.
Tune VFO A
Tune VFO B
wait
Tune more
wait
popup error while tuning VFO B - OLE error code 0x80004005: Unspecified error
Click Ignore
Can't reproduce each time


Rig set to SPLIT
Tune VFO A
Tune VFO B
popup error - OLE IDispatch exception code 0 from System: The I/O operation has been aborted because of either a thread exit or an application reset.
Ignore
Function argument value, type, or count is invalid.
Ignore
Function argument value, type, or count is invalid.
Ignore
Function argument value, type, or count is invalid.
Ignore
Function argument value, type, or count is invalid.
Ignore


As mentioned before if you watch the freq and mode display window in LOGic it will change for no reason.
My K3 is set to CW and SPLIT, freq of 14.04550
LOGic will jump to LSB, freq 00.000000 then revert back. During this brief second if I'm tuning on VFO B I get the popup error.
I am not sure what is triggering LOGic to jump.

I noticed when using REV to listen to the other VFO it seemed to make the occurrence happen more often.



TS-850 NON-Legacy
popup error right away when tuning VFO B



TS-850 Legacy
Happy Happy Happy, no popup errors except when using REV to listen to other VFO - Radio timeout popup
I can NOT produce a popup error like when using the K3 and TS850 non-legacy drivers.
No quirkiness with freq/mode display window either.










N5XZ
#22 Posted : Wednesday, February 10, 2016 5:33:22 PM(UTC)
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Kyle, in SETUP, do you have the rig set for POLING or not? (Note: this is a K3 option and it was grayed out for a long time until I reported it to Dennis.) I have found that when I set it to POLING, it crashes a lot more often, so I turned POLING off. The result, however, is that the frequency display window, with rig control, while initially showing the frequency, will revert to 00.0000 after a while, and will stay that way until I reset the connection. However, even though the frequency shows 00.0000, the software always logs the right frequency and mode, etc. Weird. But, even with POLING turned off, I still get the occasional crash. (Seems to happen more often when I have guests and I am showing off the station automation!!) hi
73, Allen N5XZ
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